Saturday, August 15, 2015

Independent Research: National/Local Guidance on Library Services for the Economically Disadvantaged

As I mentioned in an earlier post, part of my time on this trip has been spent researching programs and/or services that UK public lending libraries provide for customers who are experiencing homelessness or other economic hardship. 

The American Library Association (ALA) has a toolkit to help guide US libraries in providing services to people experiencing homelessness, and I attended a webinar called "Understanding and Serving People Experiencing Homelessness: A Trauma-Informed Approach to Library Service" hosted by the Public Library Association (PLA) in June.
 
Image from: http://www.ala.org/offices/extending-our-reach-reducing-homelessness-through-library-engagement

As part of my research, I wanted to learn what resources or guidance (if any) library organizations provide in the UK. So, I contacted the Public and Mobile Library Group (PMLG) of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals (CILIP) and the Association of London Chief Librarians (ASCL), the regional subgroup of the Society of Chief Librarians.

Public and Mobile Library Group (PMLG)
According to its website, the PMLG has provided "expert advice" on "working with the homeless in public libraries." I contacted Dianne Hird, the Honorary Secretary of the PMLG, to see what kind of advice they've given and what kind of resources or guidance they provide to public libraries on this subject in the UK.

I need to pause here and say: I love how enthusiastic librarians are about sharing information. I've been in my LIS program for a year and a half now, and I'm still surprised by and grateful for the generous responses I've received whenever I approach a librarian for help with an assignment. Dianne not only responded promptly to my query, she forwarded my questions to two other committee members and forwarded their responses to me. It's experiences like these that encourage me to continue working toward this new career.


Unlike the ALA in the US, the PMLG/CILIP doesn't have any formal policies or guidelines on services to the homelessness. The advice referred to on the website was verbal and was related to mobile libraries for the homeless. 

While there isn't a UK-wide policy or strategy on working with homeless people, the PMLG committee members pointed out a number of helpful things that many libraries do, such as:
  • Relaxing membership rules for people with no fixed address
  • Providing free computer access
  • Providing access, shelter, and toilets while the building is open
  • Introduce specific projects around IT training and reading
  • Engaging in partnerships with organizations dealing with homelessness
  • Offering reading groups for homeless people
  • Providing mental health information
  • Signposting to local homelessness organizations, shelters, and council services
The committee members also provided links to articles and outside organizations that should prove helpful to my research. Again, I was overwhelmed and grateful for the time and energy they put into their responses.

Association of London Chief Librarians (ALCL)
The current Chair of the ALCL is Carol Boswarthack, who is also the Chief Librarian at the Barbican Library. She spoke with us briefly yet enthusiastically about public library service during our tour of the Barbican Library, so I looked forward to seeing what she had to say about ALCL's guidance on public library service to the homeless. 

Neither the ALCL nor its parent organization, the Society of Chief Librarians, offers formal guidance or makes policy in this regard. Every library is different and serves a unique customer base with varying levels of need based on their locations. Each library has its own "program of work" specifically designed to fit the needs of its own community. If anything, members of the ALCL ask questions and share information with fellow chief librarians in the group (e.g., How do you deal with…? Do any of you have a local policy on…?). Carol noted that this is incredibly helpful when you are trying to formulate your own local policies.

Carol explained that, in the UK, homelessness/helping homeless people is considered the responsibility of local government. I encountered this idea in all of my public library visits. Whenever I asked about library services to the homeless, I was met with an expression of confusion and an explanation that other organizations take care of that sort of thing. The primary service the libraries I visited provide is referrals to other government agencies and outside organizations.

Carol also referred me to The Network, which is a network of many different bodies, including libraries, museums, and archives, that share information and best practices through newsletters, e-bulletins, and e-mail discussion lists. The Network "responds to Government and other calls for information about the social justice role of the cultural sector; and organises and takes part in courses, seminars and conferences." I will definitely check it out.

See what I mean about the generosity of librarians?

July 22: Barbican Library

On Wednesday, we visited another public library (yay!): the Barbican Library.

  
The Barbican Library is the largest library in the City of London (the 1.12-square-mile city/district within the metropolis of London that is considered the original part of the city). The library resides in the Barbican Centre. According to its website, the Barbican Centre is "Europe's largest multi-arts and conference venue presenting a diverse range of art, music, theatre, dance, film and creative learning events. It is also home to the London Symphony Orchestra."


According to our tour guides, the library is just a tenant here...not really part of the Centre. This seems to have a mixed result: people coming to another event at the Centre may discover the library as well, and even when the library is closed, customers can still access the automated library return and a couple of the library's computers just outside the door.



There are also opportunities to encounter famous people: we were told that Benedict Cumberbatch was in the building, rehearsing for Hamlet.

But then the library is also tucked away in the complex (and on the complex's website), making it a little hard to find. Also, the library isn't completely closed off. The main floor of the library is really a mezzanine open to one of the Centre entrances downstairs. There was a graduation at the Centre that day, so there were crowds (or what sounded like crowds) of people milling around and talking downstairs, which got distracting at times. But there was also a jazz band playing a little later. I wouldn't mind visiting a library and browsing the stacks or reading with some live jazz playing in the background.


The library has a unique mix of customers. Very few people actually live in the City of London--only about 9,000. But over 330,000 work in the City, and the library caters mostly to those customers (it lends out a lot of nonfiction). The library is working on building its children customer base with lots of programs. In fact, we were only able to peek our heads in the Children's Library because they had a STEM program on that day.

We did sit down at some point to hear from a member of the Children's Library staff about the programs offered there. (They provided refreshments. More cookies! I'm starting to think that all public libraries do this. I must remember this for when I work in one.) The children's library hosts visits from local schools and nurseries for rhyme times, story times, and other programs (the kids can also take out books during these visits). The Children's Library also hosts a summer reading program, reading groups for three age ranges, as well as after school clubs. The library also participates in a Book Start program, similar to Edinburgh Library's, where children receive packets of books at birth and at preschool age. They also have a Reading to Succeed program, where they pair young readers with adult partners to help improve their literacy skills.

Because it is in the middle of an arts center, the library has an extensive arts collection, as well as a music library. I thought it interesting that both public libraries we visited had music libraries. Like the Edinburgh Central library's Music Library, the Barbican Music Library has exhibition space. They had an exhibit on the BBC Music Library when we visited.


The library has an extensive collection of music books, magazines, scores, CDs, and DVDs on topics ranging from playing technique to the latest pop stars. The library boasts a large collection of magazines from musical societies, which they often get for free because the societies see it as an opportunity for free advertising. And the library has a collection, called Unsigned London, of CDs by local artists who have not signed with a label. It also provides practice pianos and listening booths for customers to use.

Like the Edinburgh Central Library, the Barbican charges a fee for customers to "borrow" CDs and DVDs. Unlike Edinburgh, the Barbican doesn't have a Concession level of membership, so everyone pays the same...which is fair, I suppose. I did ask whether customers who couldn't afford the fees would be able to listen or watch an item in the library. Customers may listen to a CD at one of the listening booths for free. However, because of licensing agreements, they are not allowed to watch a DVD in the library for free, as it would be considered a "broadcast" and he library would have to pay a fee. There is an exception for video tutorials: legislation requires that libraries provide educational material for free. Our guides told us that, if there was such legislation for all media, they probably wouldn't be able to afford their collection.

This, and other conversations that day, had me thinking about access--especially as I think about my research into public library services for customers who are homeless or economically disadvantaged. It seems most public libraries in the UK charge fees for access to CDs and DVDs. In addition, many of the children's programs and access to the catalog (at least when accessed from outside the library) are restricted to library members only. Membership is easy to obtain...as long as you have an address.

The Barbican Library does provide ways around this: children who attend school in the city can apply for membership, and some local shelters, hostels, and community centers will provide letters to vouch for their clients. And anyone can come in and use (most of) the materials and access the catalog and computers in the library for free. Unlike Edinburgh Central Library, the Barbican Library doesn't have different levels of membership, and they don't have any policies for waiving borrowing or late fees. But they don't seem to see this as restricting access to some people. The people I spoke with saw this as providing equal service to everyone--a level playing field. The same rules apply to everyone. Which, I suppose, is the whole idea behind a public library: to provide equal access to the same information and education. Though, when access to certain resources is tied to an address or fees, which not everyone has access to, I don't know how level that is. There's lots to think about here.

Thursday, August 13, 2015

July 23: Bletchley Park

Our last class visit was out in Milton Keynes, where we toured Bletchley Park and the National Museum of Computing (which is located in the park).


This visit was another reason I applied for this program. I'm a fan of the program Bletchley Circle, and read The Secret Lives of Codebreakers for an assignment prior to coming to London, and have become fascinated with place. During World War II, Bletchley Park was the secret base for the U.K.'s Government Code and Cipher School. All of the work to decode enemy messages during the war took place on this site by an unlikely mix of people--from academics and university students, to debutantes, to military and intelligence personnel, to teenage messenger girls.

All of this activity took place with the greatest secrecy. It is difficult to imagine today how such a massive number of people (an estimated 9,000 to 10,000) were recruited, trained, and worked at Bletchley—and lived in the surrounding towns—without the secret getting out about the work that was going on there. With the exception of a slip of the tongue here and an attempt to impress a love interest there, most recruits did not breathe a word to their families or friends about the work they did during the war...for decades. People are still just learning now that Grandma cracked German or Japanese code during the War. No one in the neighboring towns, who were tasked with housing these workers, questioned what their tenants were up to. And even within the Park, work was compartmentalized so that, for example, a message would be translated in one hut and conveyed by phone to some other location in the Park. Not until years later, after the Park opened as a museum, did veterans realize that the place they had been phoning was the hut next door.

Codebreaking Huts 3 and 6 
Image from: http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/.
 
I highly recommend The Secret Lives of Codebreakers. It has some wonderful first-hand accounts from people who served at Bletchley and paints a full picture of life there. Do yourself a favor and skip The Imitation Game and just read this book or watch Bletchley Circle instead.

When we arrived, we went straight to the National Museum of Computing. According to the website, the museum has "the largest collection of functional historic computers in Europe." I thought of my friend Margie, who would have loved seeing all of the computer systems they have and watching them work. But it was way over my head. If I hadn't known anything about Bletchley before I came (and some of my classmates didn't), I wouldn't have known what our guide was talking about when he talked about Bombes and Collosi--two of the machines developed and used to break code during WWII. Beyond that, it was extremely technical and completely lost on me. I couldn't even follow along enough to bring back some cool tidbits for Margie. I did take a few pictures, so hopefully they'll make sense to her...

A rebuilt, working Collosus.

 An EDSAC. 

I don't remember what this is. But my classmate Kim got to operate it. 


I was very surprised to see a quilt on one of the walls (the only quilt I've seen the whole trip). So, of course, I got a picture of that.

Our tour guide was friendly and witty and seemed tremendously knowledgeable about all the technology he showed us. I feel badly that I wasn't able to follow.

In the afternoon, we did a walking tour of the Park. It was surreal to be in this place that I'd read about and seen on my TV screen. 

Sadly, we didn't get to go into the house or any of the huts where people worked. We did have time to pop our heads into the museum portion of the park. There I got to see a working replica of a Bombe. (All of the machines used during the war were destroyed, so they had to use plans and parts they found later to rebuild these machines--the Bombes and the Collosi--now in the Park.)


In this video, Jean Valentine, who served in the Women's Royal Naval Service and worked on the Bombes at Bletchley, talks about her experience. 

The museum also had a whole display of Enigma machines. The Germans used these small machines during the war to encrypt all their messages. All of the efforts at Bletchley were aimed at cracking the encryption created by these small machines. They were considered uncrackable...until the people at Bletchley cracked them. It is thought that the work at Bletchley shortened the war by at least 2 years and possibly spared the Germans the atomic bomb.


This video demonstrates how the Enigma works:


Wednesday, August 12, 2015

July 21: Kew Royal Botanic Gardens

On our first day back from mini-break, we visited the Library, Art, and Archives at Kew Royal Botanic Gardens.


First, we heard from Andrew Wiltshire, a friend of the British Studies Program, who talked about how he used the archives, museum, and library at Kew to research Beatrix Potter and Leslie Linder, the man who broke the code in Potter's diary. To keep her thoughts private from an overbearing mother and servants, Potter wrote in a diary during her young womanhood (1881 to 1887) in a code she devised herself. It took Linder 5 years to find the diary, 4 years to break the code, and 4 years to publish the diary. (Which, I have to say, makes me uncomfortable. Something about publishing a person's private thoughts...)

In addition to writing her famous stories, Potter was also a skilled, albeit amateur, botanist. In her twenties, Potter became interested in fungi, and she visited Kew often to study them. Later, during our tour of the library and archives, we saw an entry in an old visitor's book:


Potter painted some professional-level botanical images (like those shown below), and even wrote a research paper...which she was not allowed to present to the Linnean Society. Being a woman, she wasn't even allowed to be present when the subject of her paper was a topic of discussion. Wiltshire wondered out loud whether we would have her stories today if Potter had been able to pursue her interest in botany more freely.

 

Following Mr. Wilshire's presentation, we learned a bit about the library's collection. Kew started as a royal botanic garden populated with medicinal plants in the 1750s. It's called the Royal Botanic Gardens--with an 's'--because it was originally two gardens, which King George III inherited and combined into one garden. Later in the day, I got to tour Kew Palace, a former retreat for the royal family and the place where King George III would recover from his episodes of 'madness.'


The garden at the back of the house was...and still is...populated with plants that had medicinal properties thought to ease the King's affliction.


Kew later formed as a public organization in 1840. The library started out with 600 volumes from a private collection and grew through private donations and bequests. This is cool: one donor, George Bentham, donated his entire collection while he was still alive, and he would come to Kew if he needed to look things up in one of his own books. The library now has one of the largest collections in the world relating to botany. Much of its collection is still privately donated, freeing up funds for the library to make strategic purchases.

The library has thousands of botanic illustrations, like those below. I learned that botanical illustrations must appear on a plain white background and are required to be scientifically accurate and show the plant in all stages of life in one image. A person should be able to identify a plant specimen by comparing it to the image.


I'd seen botanical images before, but never realized how detailed they really are. You can see the stoma (pores) on the leaf in the close-up below.


We saw a copy of Hortus Sanitatis from 1370. The monks who copied this out had a sense of humor. Their illustration of a monkfish is, well...


 ...a monk with scales and fins.

They also have an interesting take on the mandrake.


And they even added an illustration of a womandrake.


The other item in the collection that caught my eye was this copy of Selectarum Stirpium Americanarum Historia. There are 30 known copies of this book worldwide, and each cover page was hand drawn and is unique to each copy.


Finally, since this is a library for a botanic garden, we got to see the Herbarium, in which specimens are preserved to help document and identify plants. Specimens come to the Herbarium in newspaper sheets and are stored in boxes. They are then put into archival folders and filed in cabinets, organized by family. Those considered "perfect specimens" are kept in red folders. The collection grows by 30,000 specimens each year.

This video from the Herbarium's website has some great images of the space being used, and how the specimens are organized.


Monday, August 10, 2015

July 15: Edinburgh Central Library



This was one of my favorite daysfor two reasons. This was our first official visit to a public library in the UK. It was also the last class before my birthday…which led to one of the most, if not THE most, memorable moments of the whole trip for me.

While we waited for our visit to officially begin, the professors presented me with a birthday card that everyone had signed, and then everyone sang Happy Birthday...only, because we were in the Edinburgh Public Library, they had to whisper it!

I will never forget this chorus of 20+ librarians whispering Happy Birthday to me in the entrance to the Edinburgh Central Library. It. Was. Awesome. 
 Photo courtesy of Dr. Welsh, taken by Dr. Griffis.

Anyway…back to business: the Edinburgh Central Library.

 Entrance to the Edinburgh Central Library. This is a Carnegie Library. Andrew Carnegie insisted that any library he funded have the words “Let There Be Light” placed above the entrance.

First, we broke into three groups for a tour of the library. Later, we met back in a conference room for refreshments (I love public libraries!) and some presentations. 

One of the things I like about the layout of this building is that the Children’s Library is separate from the rest of the library. There’s a room for each age group, plus a separate craft room for messy activities and events. Kids can practice being quiet (or not, depending on the activity) without being disruptive to (or disrupted by) adult library users elsewhere in the building. Each room is decorated to inspire the imagination. The room for children under 5 has illustrations on the walls and windows by Catherine Rayner, and the room for those aged 5 to 11 has circular cut-outs in the walls that the children can curl up and read in. (I might have tried it if I were certain I’d be able to get back out.)


The main floor houses the Lending department. This department houses all materials for every subject except music, art, and Edinburgh/Scotland (these materials each have their own departments elsewhere). Everything is available to borrow. Our guide explained that, in the past, you would have had to go up to a huge counter and tell a member of staff what you wanted. Now, the shelves are arranged using retail principles, with certain items on display to catch a reader’s eye, and patrons can help themselves.


The Reference department holds the same types of collections as the Lending department. This room serves as the main study space, but also as a function room after hoursstaff will move the tables out of the way to hold functions here. 


While much of the catalog is digitized, some items are still in the original catalog, which is kept along one wall.


There’s a special Art and Design Library upstairs that houses all materials related to fine arts, painting, sculpture, etc. This space is a combination lending and reference library that also has display space for showcasing original artists. We weren’t able to see this space, but our guide told us that the library has a special collection of Japanese worksthe Dyer Collectionwhich includes a 40-foot scroll of Tokyo. There are images of it on the library’s Capital Collections site.

The Music Library just opened in May 2014 (my pictures of this area are too blurry). This department contains various media covering all genres of musiceven whale music. They have books and films about music and musicians, sheet music, and full orchestral scores that local orchestras and choirs can borrow (up to 80 scores per concert). The Music Library has a unique mix of music-related materials in its collection: a rare collection of 18th century Scottish bagpipe music, instructions for Edinburgh country dances, and memorabilia from the mid-20th century Edinburgh Jazz scene. (The Edinburgh Jazz Festival was set to begin that weekend. I wish I’d been there to see it.) A Holocaust survivor, who also served as cantor in a synagogue in Edinburgh, even donated his sheet music to the collection. There’s also a performance diary in which local groups can promote upcoming performances, and the library has a digital piano and a computer with a piano keyboard for those who want to come in and play or compose music.

This is mostly a lending collection, though patrons are charged a fee to “borrow” video and audio recordings. I asked whether those who couldn’t afford it had a way to view or listen to the materials in the building. Our guide just said that seniors and those unemployed were classified as “Concession” status (it’s a different level of membership) and could borrow items at a discount (which still isn’t free…). 

The Edinburgh and Scottish Collection is housed on a lower level and is filled with ephemera…concert programs, maps, prints, and newspaper clippings. Our guide told us that the librarians used to go through the paper every morning and clip stories related to Edinburgh. The collection has Gaelic language courses, laminated maps for hill walking, and photos of Highland life. And it has voters’ rolls and tax registers, documents from Scottish Parliament, a collection of graveyard inscriptions, and other Scottish genealogy materials. 


******************************
After our tours, we all returned to a meeting room for tea, coffee, and cookies (even the shortbread sandwich cookies with the jam in the middle; I LOVE those) while we listened to some presentations. 

I realize this post is already painfully long (there’s just too much good stuff!), so I’ll try and just recap key things from the presentations:

Collection Development
Karen O’Brien talked about the library’s collections and shared some great advice:
  • Look for materials that will add value to the collection for years to come
  • Collect items of national value
  • Don’t purchase or accept things you know you can’t take care of
  • Collect in all formats
  • Conservation: if you don’t know what to do, don’t do anything
  • If you’re lucky, some important collections may draw money to support their own preservation
  • Use media whenever you can, let the public know about your collections, and make them fun and easy to use

Developing Business to Develop Readership
Sarah Forteath, the Library’s Business Development Manager, talked about some key initiatives she is proud of. These are the ones I found most interesting:
  • Partnering with Dyslexia Scotland to put on events to raise awareness and attract more people to the library, where there are special collections and programs for people of all ages with dyslexia (e.g., Chatterbooks reading groups for kids aged 8-12)
  • The Reading Rainbows Program, a book-gifting program that provides gift bags with two books for each 4-year-old in the city; the library partners with Children and Families to distribute these bags to nurseries in areas of deprivation; the libraries also conduct activities and events around these books
  •  
Digital Initiatives
Alison Stoddart spoke about the library’s dedicated digital team (which includes a staff photographer) and the technology the library utilizes to organize its collections, provide access, and advertise its services.
The libraries in Edinburgh are part of City of Edinburgh Council, so the library’s primary web presence is a page with basic information on the council’s website. (This has been the case in all the public libraries I’ve researched here: the library is presented and, it seems, treated as one of the many services provided by the local councilnot as a stand-alone entity, like you might find in the US. You seem to end up with less information on the web—and access to online library resources for visitors who aren’t library membersbut more connectivity and inclusion with the rest of the services in the town.) To remedy the lack of information and access, the team developed Your Library, which provides links to the library's online services and collections.

The library uses free media, like Eventbrite, and social media sites (Facebook, Twitter) to advertise its services and events online. Alison said that a key to breaking down any resistance to the use of these methods is to get the staff involved in populating these sites.

The library also has a blog, Tales of One City, which keeps readers up-to-date on what’s going on at the library. I’ve been following it, and they post something every few days. They inspire a lot of excitement for the unique collections and programs the library has to offer. They just published a story about a set of World War I scrapbooks found in the collection. The library was able to find out who donated them and where the family is now. Such a cool story. 

In addition, the team is working hard to digitize the library’s collections. The library has a website, called Our Town Stories, which provides a curated narrative of the Edinburgh historical collection. 

As I mentioned earlier, the library also has a Capital Collections site. This site gets over 100,000 visitors a year, and the library even sells images through this site.

Edinburgh Collected is a site where people can contribute their own personal memories and photos to the library’s digital collection. There’s also a mobile version so members can contribute photos and stories as they happen. What a great way to get people involved in making connections and contributing to local history!

Wednesday, August 5, 2015

July 14: University of Edinburgh New College Library


After a LONG bus ride on Monday (during which I wrote out a bunch of blog posts and all my postcards—apparently, I need to be trapped on a bus for 8 hours to get something done), we arrived in Edinburgh and rested up for a visit to the New College Library at the University of Edinburgh on Tuesday.

The space is beautiful and has a cool history. The building itself started out as a church. When the Free Church of Scotland formed in a break from the established Church of Scotland in 1843, it was determined that a “new college” and library were needed to educate new ministers. An appeal went out asking for private individualsespecially womento donate their books to the collection. (You know, because what are they going to do with them?) The college asked for publishers and authors to donate books as well. The library ended up with around 10,000 books, which were kept in a professor’s rooms. The collection moved a few times and, when the Scottish churches reunited in 1929 and New College joined the old collegethe University of Edinburghthe church vacated this space and the library moved in. The library officially opened in this space in 1936. Since it is an historical space, the building still has its original furnishings from the 1930s; though, it does have some modern updates: it is a wireless network zone.

The library now holds around 250,000 volumes, about 90,000 of which are rare books and special collections. The library supports the college’s School of Divinity (and what a great space for itimagine coming to this reading room to study divinity, surrounded by old wood [circa 1930s], stained glass, and quiet), but also serves as a general reading space. The library serves a large postgraduate (what we would call graduate in the U.S.) population, but local ministers also come in to do research for their sermons and other work.

 

The library houses materials on all religions and none at all. It seems they collect anything remotely related to religion or religious themesa classmate and I peered into a drawer of DVDs and found a copy of The Priest in there.
Much of the collection is listed in the online catalog, though not all. About 40% (mostly special collections) are still slowly being added to the catalog, usually as they are returned by users. The library, in fact, has a large online collection of e-books and e-journals as well as databases; however, it still has quite a few print journals and references available. Many library users prefer print. And many are from the local community, not part of the college, and so wouldn’t have access to the online materials. So, library staff hesitate to put all of their more current resources solely online.

The library collection is housed on 5 levels and expands downward, with load-bearing stacksthey’re actually holding up the building. Before 1936, a reader would have to ask a librarian to fetch a book for them (and the librarian had the right to deny them, if they thought the choice was inappropriate). Now, library users are free to go down in the stacks for themselves. Having gone down there, I think I would still ask a librarian to retrieve an item for me. The shelves are close together, the ceilings are low, and the rooms are poorly lit. It was a bit creepy.
Most of the lending stock is located in the main reading room, however. Undergraduates are allowed to borrow up to 40 items for 4 weeks; postgraduates and college staff can borrow up to 60 volumes for 12 weeksand many of them do! Readers may also borrow items from the special collection to view for up to 3 hours in the glass-enclosed Funk Reading Room.

Our hosts set out some items from the special collection in this room for us to see. The one that interested me the most was a book describing, in detail, the types and locations of the animals aboard Noah's Ark, along with their locations. This definitive work clearly shows that unicorns were on board this historic vessel. I wonder if any materials in the library’s collection reveal what happened to them…